WEIRTON CITY COUNCIL
COUNCIL MEETING - SPECIAL
THURSDAY, DECEMBER 13, 2007 1:30 P. M.
A special meeting of the Common Council of the City of Weirton, Hancock and Brooke Counties, West Virginia was held on Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 1:30 P.M. in Council Chambers of the Weirton City Building.
Mayor Harris called the meeting to order.
Councilmembers in Attendance: George Ash Councilmember Ward 4 Ronnie Jones Councilmember Ward 1 Fred Marsh Councilmember Ward 3 Harold Miller Councilmember Ward 2 David Dalrymple Councilmember Ward 6 Max Fijewski Councilmember Ward 7 George Kondik Councilmember Ward 5
City Officials in Attendance: Gary DuFour City Manager Vincent Gurrera City Attorney Mark Lowe Weirton Fire Department, Acting Chief Thomas J. Maher, Jr. City Clerk John Serafini Code Official
Others in Attendance: Mr. James Jordan Mr. Bruce Costello Gio Rossi Media - Weirton Daily Times
Mayor Harris led the Pledge of Allegiance.
Mayor Harris commented, “At this time Gentlemen I’m going to open it up for citizen comments.”
CITIZEN COMMENTS
Mr. James Jordan 90 Seneca Street, Weirton, WV: Re: Smoke Ordinance Mr. Jordan commented, “This is regarding the ordinance in front of you all. It’s been discussed. I just wanted to supply as much information as I could to Council and try to help you understand how these systems work and what a benefit they can be. I hope that this ordinance won’t hinder future installations. I hope to encourage alternative fuel sources. I would, I’ve had the unit installed for over two years now. This is my third burning season. I haven’t had any complaints or problems with anybody else. I’m burning seasoned firewood in the unit. The unit itself is more or less a holding tank of water. It holds 160 gallons of water, and all the wood does is maintain that temperature. When the house, structure, calls for heat I have a heat exchanger that has hot water running through it. It’s a hot water hydronic system. When it calls for heat it goes through the heat exchanger through the ductwork and (unintelligible) heating the house. When I installed the unit, I wasn’t aware of any restrictions. I checked to make sure that I wasn’t violating any codes or anything.”
Mayor Harris commented, “Did you call our code department?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “The building, the building inspector wasn’t, didn’t have any information. He actually wanted the information on outsource, outdoor wood burners, wood boilers.”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “Is there a permit issue for this?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “No, sir.”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “Because it is over $2,000. Correct?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “Yes. Is that the restriction?”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “Yes.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “Any structure, I’m not, I didn’t, I didn’t know how to look at it, say, I wasn’t building it. It was a unit that was brought in and then just set up on top…”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “If I’m correct John, any work over $2,000 automatically incurs a…”
Mr. Serafini commented, “A thousand dollars....”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “A thousand dollars. Thank you.”
Mr. Serafini commented, “…is a minimum for that, yes.”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “Any work, whether it’s changing a furnace or siding or roof or anything, anything over $1,000 requires a permit.”
Mayor Harris commented, “Did you say that the building, the enforcement officers were out there, that they didn’t have any…”
Mr. Jordan commented, “No, I just called and said do you have any information on the installation of wood burners. And, they didn’t have any information.”
Mayor Harris commented, “Councilman Ash, did you have something…”
Mr. Jordan commented, “And, that’s as far as…”
Mayor Harris commented, “Councilman Ash had a question.”
Councilmember Ash commented, “Yes. I want to known. Did you ask if you had to have any permits?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “No, sir.”
Councilmember Ash commented, “Did anybody in code enforcement inform you that you needed any permits?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “No, sir.”
Councilmember Ash commented, “They didn’t tell you that if it’s over a thousand dollars you had to have a permit?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “Not that I recall. Just any restrictions on the…what I remember, it’s been two years ago.”
Councilmember Ash commented, “Do you know who you talked to?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “No, sir.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Mr. Jordan, do you understand the issue, why this is even being discussed in a resolution.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “Yes, sir.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Has that been explained to you?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “I’d like to address that.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “I just want to make sure that you under, someone’s shared that with you. You’re telling me that someone did share that with you?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “Yes, I know the issue.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Ok. Good. Thank you. And, you understand the reason why the person brought it up, I guess is why I’m asking.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “Yes, sir.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Ok. Good. Thank you.”
Mayor Harris commented, “Ok, go ahead and explain with what you brought, with your comments.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “Regarding that issue. The person that’s complaining lives on the west side of me. Over 80% of our weather comes from the west / southwest, give or take. I live on the east side of their residence. This unit in particular doesn’t burn continuously. I’m not going to say it never smokes. It does smoke during cycles. It does have a burning cycle. Once it gets, once it maintains, once it reaches the temperature of the water inside, it shuts down which is barely, sometimes you can’t even see anything coming out of the stack. I feel that’s a big benefit. If you want to compare it to a conventional fireplace, it does not burn continually. As far as it being a nuisance, I burn seasoned firewood, and nothing else. The majority of the time the wind doesn’t even blow in that direction. I’m not going to say depending upon the barometric pressure or whatever you’re going have a long windy day, you’re going to have smoke. I’m not going to say it never happens, but you could get that with any fireplace, anything, any time you’re burning wood. I don’t feel that it’s an extreme appliance and it’s causing a nuisance. The elevation of the homes, there’s, the person has called the DEP, Department of Environmental Protection. I’ve been in contact with them. They suggested extending the stack height. I’ve been...I have no problem with that. I’ve purchased it, the components to do so. I’m in the process of installing that. He said he would like to have the stack height 2 ½ or 2 feet higher than their residence, just that’s what he would. In order to do so, I’d have to add eight more feet to my stack in which I had intentions to do it.”
Councilmember Kondik commented, “When are you planning on doing it?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “When?”
Councilmember Kondik commented, “When are you planning on doing that?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “As soon as it stops raining.”
Mayor Harris commented, “And, I was, another question was being a neighbor, hopefully you’ll be a good neighbor. What could you do to help out the other neighbors to, so they don’t have to breathe the stuff in? You’re saying putting the stack on would do that, or?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “In all honesty, like I said before, depending upon the atmosphere, the days that there aren’t any winds, and if you’re burning wood, you’re not going to get a whole lot of movement sometimes. You’re going to have a smell of smoke, but it’s very few and far between with the direction of the weather and the cycle. It doesn’t, like I said, it doesn’t burn all the time, and it’s been very economical for me, virtually eliminating my gas bills. I heat my house, approximately 2000 square feet. I heat my water with it. I’m very happy with it. I mean it’s not easy. I work very hard to acquire the wood, cut it, split it, stack it, and load it. I load it once a day. And, it basically smolders. It doesn’t smoke. It shuts it off until it has a demand for heat. It doesn’t have a blower on it. It doesn’t blow smoke. It’s natural convection. It slowly builds up. That’s why there’s a 160 gallons of water, to maintain that energy, to be able to supply the house with a slow recovery time, so it’s not blowing, billowing smoke.”
Mr. DuFour commented, “Mr. Jordan, may I ask, did the West Virginia DEP, the suggestion they gave you, did they do it in writing or make a recommendation to you in writing.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “I asked him for writing, which as I said, I don’t feel that this is going to end here, because he talked to the person that was complaining and said that I was going to comply with what he suggested like with the stack. I lost my train of thought.”
CROSSTALK
Mr. Jordan commented, “Yes, he spoke to them and let them know that I haven’t even had it installed yet and I’m here today.”
Mr. Gurrera commented, “The question was about writing. He would (unintelligible) this in writing.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “Oh, I’m sorry, ok. I asked him to do so. I asked him to do so. I could give you his name, his card. He would not put it in writing. He said that if you do this, you won’t, you won’t hear from me anymore.”
Mayor Harris commented, “How come he won’t put it in writing?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “I don’t know. I said, ‘can I have something,’ that’s where I was going with that, ‘can I have something in writing so whenever I hear a complaint again this is what I have. I’m complying with every state, local, county, city code that there is. I’m doing everything that I can to be…’”
Mayor Harris commented, “He’s wanting to be on a neutral basis.”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “Yes. Right. But, the problem is gentlemen, and I’ve done research on this. There is no code. There’s recommendations. Ok. There is no code.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “He didn’t have any….”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “There’s no code. So, even if he tells you to put this up, ok, if he tells you to put this 2 ½ feet above their roof, that’s still really not legal by code. And, if it still affects the Costello’s it’s still and issue, ok, no matter what he says. But, there is, there is absolutely no, the only code that I have found has been in New England. And, it’s not manufacturer’s recommendations. It’s something that took them months to sit down and figure out what was best for them. And, in doing research on these boilers, and I know a lot of, the recommendations are all over the place, you know. You can be anywhere from 100 to 500 feet away from the next building. You can be 2 foot above the building that is not using the appliance. You can be 2 foot above the peak of your roof. That’s the next step is to sit down and look at this.”
Councilmember Kondik commented, “That’s beside, because of the size of the furnace Fred?”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “Well, I don’t know if it is or not, but everybody’s got a different opinion and that’s where it comes in, you know. And, I don’t know where we’re going to end up going with that. He made a comment and I want to justify this. He made a comment about the fireplaces, and what’s happening with these outdoor boilers, and they’re wonderful things if you have enough property to put them on, they generate hundreds of thousands of BTU of heat compared to tens of thousands in a fireplace. Now, fireplaces can be a nuisance. But, putting a large boiler on a small stamp lot which he didn’t get a permit to do, and after listening I’m hearing do you have any codes or recommendations on an outdoor furnace, not saying I want to put one in. And, I think it was just something that snuck in, and I’m not saying that it’s bad that it snuck in. It’s something that we let happen without considering the size of the lot and everything else. But, that’s where the big difference is. These furnaces generate hundreds of thousands of BTUs compared to tens of thousands in a fireplace.”
Mayor Harris commented, “Do you have a picture of what you have?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “Yes, on the…”
Mayor Harris commented, “I mean a picture of your own.”
CROSSTALK
Mr. Jordan commented, “No.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “I think there was a picture.”
Councilmember Kondik commented, “Rodney has pictures of it.”
CROSSTALK
Mayor Harris commented, “I would just like to look at it and see where it was positioned as from the other house.”
Councilmember Miller commented, “You’ve got to remember there’s an empty lot between the two houses. This is not exactly next-door, not eight, ten feet away. There’s an empty vacant lot between the two houses.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “This doesn’t burn like a conventional fireplace either. And, I understand, I’m heating 2000 square feet. I mean it’s tough to do that with a singular fire, but I understand what you’re saying. But, it’s not. I don’t feel that the emissions are a whole lot different. Yes, I think it varies between brands to be honest with you.”
Councilmember Kondik commented, “This is the small one compared to what he could have had.”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “Is this next to your home? Is it like that?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “Yes. I marked...there is a page, page ten.”
CROSSTALK
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Have you seen these optimal hydronic heater model regulations by the EPA by any chance? Have you ever had an opportunity?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “No, sir.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Would you like to take this, I mean just read it at your leisure? It just may be helpful in terms of this whole issue and educate all of us on similar lines.”
Mayor Harris commented, “The only reason why I was asking you about, I’d just like to know how close it was to your house to see if you’re getting smell from it.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “No. I mean, sometimes it’s blowing straight up against the house and you don’t smell it unless you have a window open.”
Councilmember Miller commented, “It’s on the rear of his house in the…”
Mr. Jordan commented, “Right.”
Councilmember Miller commented, “…on the right rear corner beyond the driveway.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “I’m 30 feet, approximately 30 feet from my house. And, I’d say Costello’s is, I didn’t measure it, but it’s well over 150 feet, maybe more.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Since you do hot water with this as well, that would probably mean that it burns during the summer time.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “No, sir.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “So you don’t heat hot water in the summertime?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “I use the gas during the summertime.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Ok. Thank you.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “And, when you have 40 degree days, it might cycle two or three times. If it’s 15 degrees it might cycle five, six times.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “What does that mean, the cycle?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “It’s whenever the water temperature and the boiler goes below 165 degrees. It’ll fire until it reaches 185 degrees.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “And, what generally is that time frame?
Mr. Jordan commented, “Pardon me?”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “And what generally is that time frame?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “I never timed it to be honest with you.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Approximately, an hour, two hours?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “I’ll say an hour.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Ok.”
Councilmember Ash commented, “Sir, when I hear you say that it’s approximately 150 feet away from the other, is that…”
Mr. Jordan commented, “I’m guessing from the Costello’s residence.”
Councilmember Ash commented, “(Unintelligible) or who fires this (unintelligible). Did you do it?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “Yes. This is what I got when I bought the…”
Councilmember Ash commented, “I’m looking on page, I think it’s page three. It says it should be at least 500 feet away from a home or business, and you’re telling me it’s only 150 feet from that house.”
Mr. Serafini commented, “This is the side of the house, facing…”
Councilmember Ash commented, “And, I’m using the manufacturer’s (unintelligible).”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “I’m starting to agree. Technically, 100 to 200….”
Councilmember Ash commented, “I’m looking on page 3 sir, (unintelligible) and he’s telling me it’s about 150 feet in the other direction.
Mr. Jordan commented, “It says typically 100 to 200 feet but as far as 500 feet away from houses.”
Councilmember Ash commented, “The classic outdoor wood furnace is installed outside up to 500 feet away from the home or business.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “Typically 100 to 200 feet, but as far as 500 feet.”
Councilmember Miller commented, “I think that’s the problem with the whole issue. I can’t, the one thing is we don’t have any ordinances that we have. That’s why we were looking at this issue. And, the other thing is that Mr. Jordan has come forward, and he spoke to me yesterday and he said when he met with me that he was willing to do what they recommend to try to alleviate the problem with his neighbor. And, I think we can address the future concern about these specifications with this resolution, ordinance I mean.”
Mr. DuFour commented, “If I might, I’m prepared after this meeting if Council drops that ordinance to issue an immediate order to the code department to investigate based on the complaint I have received. That’s why I asked and I do repeat. Do you have something in writing? I want to encourage you Mr. Jordan. And, you know the neighbors. So, if we proceed down that road, I guess that would be approved from the footing scenario. We would have to, I guess we would have to (unintelligible) verify it by (unintelligible).”
Mayor Harris commented, “Before we go any further, I want to…”
CROSSTALK
Mayor Harris commented, “Would you like to say anything Chief on this issue?
Mr. DuFour commented, “You’re not saying anything? Have you seen anything on these sorts of wood burning boilers?”
Acting Fire Chief Lowe commented, “No, I don’t think the code caught up with the technology yet.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “I don’t understand. It almost seems. I said it’s been over two years since I’ve had it installed. I’ve never heard a complaint from any of my neighbors until now. Almost, like I said earlier, I know probably how much you went with the weather patterns, but that’s the truth. But, I almost feel like it’s personal. I don’t know why, but honestly, if anybody had a complaint it would be the neighbors up the street from me. That’s where the wind generally blows. I don’t know why the complaints are….”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “Does your unit have a catalytic converter on it?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “No, sir.”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “Huh?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “No, sir.”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “No. Ok.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “It just has a natural draft damper.”
Councilmember Ash commented, “Can I ask, you said you had this installed at least two years ago?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “Yes, the fall of 2005.”
Councilmember Jones commented, “Who installed it? Did you install it yourself?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “Yes, sir.”
Councilmember Ash commented, “How far back, and I guess I’d have to ask either the attorney or a code enforcement official. How far back do we go if they didn’t get the proper permits at the time? If it was over a thousand dollars and he didn’t get the permit?”
Mr. Serafini commented, “We could require him to get a permit today if Council passes. But, when we know about it, we could enforce it now with the property zoning and apply for his permits.”
Mr. DuFour commented, “But, we have nothing if, John, help me again, we have nothing right now that would restrict him from getting a permit…”
Mr. Serafini commented, “I was up there. As far as the shed, I did not go inside the structure, nor did I feel we need to. It was installed according to code. The ICC building code as far as chimneys and stacks, it met the minimum requirements for those. I didn’t, I wasn’t aware of the DEP having their standard. I did speak to Mr. Carducci myself. And, then Jim McHenry, the zoning, UDO Administrator was with me and he also, he believed that it, I don’t if he actually made the determination or not if it would require zoning, but he did say it would meet the set backs. And, that would be for an accessory structure. That would be the two, the main issue holding him up at this time, would be the zoning.”
Mr. DuFour commented, “Thank you.”
Mayor Harris commented, “Do you have anything further?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “As far as the permit, you said it’s over $2,000 it’s, over a $1,000…”
Unknown commented, “A thousand dollars.”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “A thousand dollars.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “…on a structure or a appliance?”
Mr. Serafini commented, “In the City of Weirton, any work being done on your structure, I mean there’s obviously some exceptions, but any work being done in the City of Weirton over $1,000 by a contractor, over $500 when you’re doing it yourself, the city doesn’t recognize free labor by ordinance, requires a building permit, on residential. Over $1,000 in cost on…”
Mr. Jordan commented, “On appliances?”
Mr. Serafini commented, “On anything. Well, on appliances, no, but this would, at the very minimum this would have to would have to go through zoning. Heater and heating units, some heating contractors do pull permits, and when we catch them we ask them to stop working. I understand that you’re…”
Mayor Harris commented, “The same thing what he’s trying to tell you also, I don’t know if you bought the house like this, but I see a, what looks like some type of a storage shed. That would have required a building permit. If you add a deck on the house that would require a building permit.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “As I said, I applied for building permits for them, the shed. I know about building permits, but I didn’t, this wasn’t a structure. I know ignorance is no excuse, I just, I didn’t think at the time honestly.”
Councilmember Miller commented, “Didn’t you say earlier that you talked to the inspections department when you got it? No one requested it.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “When I called, I said…”
Councilmember Miller commented, “They didn’t know anything about it. There were no specifications on it.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “…what specification or installation…”
Councilmember Miller commented, “That’s the problem.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “…do you have on the installation of…”
Councilmember Ash commented, “And, I think you’re right Mr. Miler. That’s where I’m going with this…”
Mr. Jordan commented, “Pardon me?”
Councilmember Ash commented, “I’m talking to Councilman Miller.”
Councilmember Ash commented, “If two years ago a phone call was made and, see, we don’t, we don’t know. I will take your word on it because I have no reason to doubt you. But, if the code officials didn’t tell you anything, I don’t know. Every time I’ve ever called down there they’ve always said, ‘don’t forget Mr. Ash, if it’s $1,000 or more you got to do this. You got to do that.’ And, for them not to do that would be surprising to me, if they didn’t do it. So, I have problems with telling you you can’t have this if you’ve had it for two years, but at the same time I have to look at the neighbor’s problem and the neighbor’s problem is health. And, if it’s affecting their health in any way, I guess I’ve got mixed feelings on this. I have to look at both sides of it.”
Mayor Harris commented, “I also feel that if you built a deck and you build a shed, and both times you got a building permit, and you talked about it. And, obviously you probably said you had $1,000, and then you built this thing. I mean this is still another structure, but you didn’t get a building permit.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “I didn’t look at it as a structure. I looked at it as a furnace for my house. I didn’t have that mindset. I wasn’t trying to sneak anything in. It was with good intentions.”
Mayor Harris commented, “Ok.”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “And, again, let me reiterate something here. The issue is not whether we’re going to permit or not permit these outdoor burners. Ok. His burner can stay. The issue is when it’s a nuisance and needs to be investigated and how to resolve the problem, ok, which is what we’re after.”
Councilmember Kondik commented, “Since you have the…”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “The City of Weirton’s a nuisance because we live in…”
LAUGHTER
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “Seriously, you’ve got Half Moon, we got the steel mill, we got chimneys throughout the city. I mean, if you’re going to talk about smoke being a nuisance, I drive to work every day. I’ve got to roll my window up because the nuisance of going to Half Moon cause it stinks. Now, does that become part of this problem? I mean the way this is worded, as vaguely as it’s worded, why not. Why couldn’t somebody say up on Marland Heights, ‘well you know what, Ball Metal is stinking me out up here? We need to investigate that as a nuisance.’ Then are we going to go shut Ball Metal down until they put a stack up above the height of Marland Heights to take care of that problem? That’s my issue. My thing is more, it’s not the smoke. It’s the appliance. The smoke is here. The smoke is in the area because of the industrial valley that we live in, and also with other homes that burn wood or coal to heat them with your wood stoves or fireplaces. It’s not the smoke. The smoke is the health issue, but we can’t call smoke the nuisance. It’s the appliance that’s the nuisance, because it’s the appliance in the way that it’s been installed that is causing the problem.”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “Right. And I agree with you on that. And, if you would like, I’ll share with you the file that I’ve gathered in the last two weeks. It’s about that thick on these things. And, that’s part of the problem. Like he said, Mr. Carducci’s told him to take it 2 foot above the peak of the house.”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “Right.”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “He said 150 feet. We’ve seen again, here’s a good example, 500 feet, 300 feet and they’re just all over the place.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Freddy, if I could interject please.”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “Yes.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Councilman Dalrymple, one of the distinctions I would suggest is that this unit as being in a residential area.”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “Right.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “You made reference to down at the Half Moon, the smoke emitted up and going to Marland Heights. That’s an industrial environment. The…”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “Which the smoke encroaches into a residential area.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “But, what I was trying to say though is there are restrictions and codes on construction of businesses and establishments in an industrial environment where people have to meet. The problem here is, in my opinion, we have a residential environment, one. Two, we don’t even have any restrictions or definitions of what a unit like this needs to have if it is an industrial environment, excuse me, residential environment. We do have those for the industrial environment. Even though those, that criteria may not be sufficient to satisfy some people, then we at least have something. Here, we have nothing. We have nothing in a residential area. And, I think what Councilman Marsh is saying to you, at least I’m interpreting it Mr. Marsh, is that look all of the basic problems we have is not only do we not have criteria for placement in a residential environment. The criteria that we’ve seen from a variety of source could range from A all the way to Z. So, the thing that I thought we were trying to accomplish is to come up with meaningful criteria that could be used in this, in cases like this in residential environments, cause we have it. Is that accurate?”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “Yes.”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “What is the criteria then?”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “It needs to be a process.”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “We’re in, I mean, we’re in the process of figuring out what that criteria is but in, right now, we’re getting ready to possibly pass something that’s going to stop him from being able to burn fuel until it’s investigated and we don’t even have the mode of how we’re going to investigate it.”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “There are…”
Councilmember Miller commented, “I don’t think this stops it, stops him, unless someone files a complaint. He’s met with the DEP. They’ve given him a recommendation. We have to allow him to do what they say to get it above Costello’s house…”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “Right.”
Councilmember Miller commented, “...and see if it improves it. If it doesn’t improve it we have to look harder before we even set any standards. Wouldn’t you thing John? I would think we’d…there are no standards, so we ought to look at what’s the best.”
Mr. Serafini commented, “As far as standards. The only building standards as far as chimneys and stacks and all that stuff in, you know in, you know R-5 residential, industrial, it’s all over the board. I mean they’re there. It’s just they’re not stringent enough necessarily to, in some peoples opinions for their particular air support. The building codes are a minimum standard. That’s why this is the minimum standard for a safe, mostly for fire safety and toxic gases. They’re supposed to be emitted high enough of the peak of the roof so they’re not going to roll back into your own property.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “That document I just gave to Mr. Jordan that was distributed to us previously, there are three or four options that are put out there by the EPA in terms of what municipalities can or should consider. Again, each and every one of those options is different from the next. One is ban them all together. The next is put it so many feet from the structure and so high the chimney. The next one is you’ve got to do this. So, the EPA themselves have given, in my opinion, municipalities some assistance in coming up with optional ways of dealing with this. And, I was, it was my hope that we would use that document that I shared with you, that you have, that could help us in deciding as a group which one of those options or combination of those options or create our own option would apply in trying to make sure that we deal with this issue as we move forward. But, I mean, I know it’s not rocket science. A lot of time and effort’s been put into it by the EPA, but I think there has to be a comfort level with this group as to which ones fits into what we think the City of Weirton should have. But, those are, those are already out there by the EPA.”
Councilmember Ash commented, “Mayor, if this is passed today in an emergency reading by 7-0, does that mean he’s going to have to take down his furnace, or not?”
Councilmember Kondik commented, “Or just stop using it.”
Councilmember Ash commented, “He’s going to stop using it. Now, is that meaning he’s not going to be allowed to get a permit for this? My understanding is it’s complicated. If I understood Mr. Miller correctly it’s not going to affect this particular furnace now. Am I right?”
Councilmember Miller commented, “That’s what I thought.”
Councilmember Ash commented, “Even if we pass this, are we going to allow him to get a permit today, walk down there and pay his money for a permit today and use the furnace if this is passed?”
Mayor Harris commented, “I can’t see why he would issue a permit without someone going out there and checking all the data out that we got as far as the EPA and the code.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “And DEP.”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “John, you state there’s a zoning issue here?”
Mr. Serafini commented, “I’m stating that the out shed because it’s more of a accessory type structure. Now this isn’t my determination. You know, obviously Jim, he makes the final call. It’s his department. But, just in our brief discussion about it he did, you know, it’s part of a fuel burning appliance but it’s still, he might still consider it an accessory structure. Now mind you he hasn’t done any further research on it. I don’t know if he has or not. I can’t speak for Jim on this in particular.”
Mayor Harris commented, “Ok.”
Mr. Serafini commented, “If it requires as an accessory structure it’s going to meet the setbacks. It’s just...it would have to go through the zoning process...”
Mayor Harris commented, “Ok.”
Mr. Serafini commented, “…if he can constitute that as an accessory structure.”
Councilmember Ash commented, “Do you have another way to heat your house right now if you can’t use this?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “I can get my gas furnace started again.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Do I understand? I want to be clear on this. Do I understand that you have not had conversations with your neighbors in regards to this issue?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “Um, confrontation, negative or positive?”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “No. Neither. Just, just any type…”
Mr. Jordan commented, “In the past two years?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “No. I’ve never had any conflict.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “I’m not looking for conflict, just discussion. Say, hey, could you not do that, or that’s bothering me, or the health hazards and my family…”
Mr. Jordan commented, “I’ve asked one of my neighbors if he had a problem with it and he didn’t have a problem. But, that was recently.”
Mayor Harris commented, “What neighbor was that that you asked?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “Nick Little (sp).”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Thank you.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “I do have the information that Mr. Carducci gave me. I don’t know if you’re interested in that or not. This is the requirements that he about this.”
Mayor Harris commented, “Yes. We would like that also. Will you pass that around? Is that all at this time?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “I believe so. I just…”
Mayor Harris commented, “While we look at this, can we, do we want to give Mr. Costello, we have Mr. Costello here also, do you want to give him a few minutes to review his case to?”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “If he so desires.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “Am I finished?”
Mayor Harris commented, “Yes.”
Mr. Costello commented, “Well, I’m not really prepared too much for this, just the bits and pieces that I’ve heard from this. Just to clarify a few things. I didn’t want any confrontation over this with my neighbor. So, whenever he put this in, I had no idea what it is and even the man from the EPA when I told him it was a hydronic heater, he didn’t know what it was. So, it’s not unusual that people don’t know what this actually does. And, Mr. Dalrymple referred to fireplaces. This is completely different than a fireplace, because the way this operates is you put wood in here and it smolders pretty much to keep the heat in there, and the smoldering goes out and it lays. And, Mr. Jordan said that most of it goes north. Well, it just all depends what the air inversion is. When you get days like today it’s going to hang, and since my house is lower, that’s where the smoke hangs. And, my dryer vent’s there. If my dryer’s not running the smoke goes in the dryer vent. I open up the dryer. If I don’t take them clothes out as soon as they get done. I wait. I go down. I take them out. They smell like smoke. So, you may as well just throw them back in the washer and start all over again. If I’m sitting in and watching, I have a fireplace chimney myself. I don’t use it but I have it. If I sit and watch my television I smell it coming in. Now, why I didn’t say nothing before is cause I didn’t want no trouble over this. And, I put up with it as long as I can. But, at the beginning of this year when my wife comes in coughing and her eyes watering, I said I’ve had enough. So, she says well go up there. I said I don’t want to have a confrontation. I said if you want to go up and talk to the man, you go talk to the man. He’s aware of what’s happening and evidently he doesn’t care about our health. So, she brought him down. This man has a little five year old son. She told him, ‘would you like your son to be smelling this?’ And, he said well, I can’t do noting about Mother Nature. Well, yes you can because you don’t have to burn it. And, like, like all younz are aware of this now, I’ve had a few bad incidents with people with lung cancer, and whenever I read that this causes lung cancer, because I wasn’t aware of this before, when I started doing some research on this, and when health departments come right out and tell you the things that this emits, then I got concerned. And, that’s why I approached you to do something. And, you know, I’m not going to let my family stay in this house and die from lung cancer. If I have to sell my house and move, I will. But, now are you telling me I can’t live in the City of Weirton because if I buy another house and my neighbor decides to put one of these things in, I’m going to have the same problem again. So, it’s not just my problem. It’s, it’s, it’s every one of younz problem, because if someone decides to do this next to your house, you know. I mean, hey, he chops wood. He got a log splitter. He got, I don’t care about all that. That doesn’t bother me. The only thing that bothers me is smoke coming into my house. If the smoke wants to go into his house, so be it. I don’t care. But, I think I should have the right to have my own house just like you want your Council chambers to be smoke free. I think my house should be able to be smoke free, and I should be the one to decide that. And, I don’t know how else to go about it. I’ve contacted everybody that I thought would have some input, but like you say, this is a new, unproven ground, like if you read anything about it you’ll see that this is becoming a big issue in the New England states, because there’s a lot of wood available. It’s cold. That price of heating fuel is going up, and everybody’s looking a way to save a buck. Well, you know, if he wants to save a dollar, more power to him, but I don’t want to do it with the expense of my family’s health. And, that’s the bottom line. So, you know, if we can do something about it, fine. When the man come from the EPA three weeks ago, he told him to put 15 foot of stack on it. Nothing’s been done. So, I had 11 more days of smelling smoke. So, I mean, it’s not like he’s trying to rectify the situation. It’s like is somebody’s going to twist his arm and force him, or are we just going to let this keep on going through this winter and next winter and the winter after that till finally something happens to where I say ok, now are we happy. My wife got lung cancer. You know what I mean. I don’t want it to go that far. And, there’s nobody here. I’ve been through the lung cancer deal with my brother. And, there’s nobody here that could tell me that it does or does not cause it. So, I don’t want to take the chance. If any of younz want to take the chance, put one in and smell it. But, I’m not taking the chance, cause I seen what it does. So, you know, it’s in your hands gentlemen. What you can do rests, I, right now it seems like I’m the lone man out there, but there’s been other people approach me and said, you know, ‘I had that problem with somebody else burning stuff.’ So, it’s not a, just an isolated incident. It’s just, people, like I said, I’ve lived in this town for 55 years. This is the first time I’ve ever come to Council for anything. There’s other things that bothered me, but not to this extent. So, you know, I don’t want to become a pain in anybody’s side, but when you can’t go into your own house and sit down and not smell smoke, something’s wrong. And, you know, with all the clean air things that have been going around in all the establishments, I think your house ought to be the first place allowed to have clean air, cause that’s the place you’re at most of the time if you’re not at work. So, like I said, with the other health issues, I don’t need this added on to it. So, thanks again for you…”
Mr. Gurrera commented, “Do you think the stack would cure this situation?”
Mr. Costello commented, “Personally, I don’t think it will, because I think it’s the air inversion that causes the problem. Like I say, like I started keeping track. Out of 30 days, there was 11 days. I got the dates down at home. I didn’t bring them cause I wasn’t prepared. But, If you went and looked at the weather forecast, I guarantee you the days that I smelled the smoke was the day you had air inversions, and the day that I didn’t smell the smoke was with the days that the wind was blowing rather strong in the other direction. So, I mean, no one’s going to be able to control that. And, you know, you can tell him don’t burn it on the days you got air inversion, but by the time you figure out you got an air inversion it’s too late. It’s already hanging there. You know what I mean. So, you know, you, to that extent, I don’t know. I’d be willing to let him try that if, if, if somebody thinks it will. But, you know, I got to rectify the situation. I mean, I thought when the, you know, I, this actually started like at the beginning of October when it first started to turn cold. Now we’re into the middle of December, and I haven’t seen any progress anywhere with anybody. But, when my wife first talked to him about this, she asked him to put a few more stacks on to see if it would help, and he said that won’t help. I don’t know if it will or not. But, you know, alls I know gentlemen is I got this problem and I need it rectified. How we can do it, I don’t know. But, like I say it’s sort of new ground, but it’s going to become a problem more and more if it’s not addressed now, because there’s going to be other people that have this same problem. I mean, you know, when the manufacturer comes out and says these shouldn’t be so, so close to other houses I think they realize there’s a problem. So, you know, in my opinion they should be kept out of the city, cause they should be, they’re made for people out on the farm that have access to trees and what have you. But, you know, it’s not my call.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Mr. Costello, I just want to respond basically to a couple points you’ve made. The first one is I think your, our concern equals your concern in regards to people inhaling smoke. If you looked at the Council’s actions that was taken I believe in the November Council meeting, this Council approved a temporary ban on burn permits throughout the whole City of Weirton. The purpose for doing that is just to try to consider and address and hopefully resolve the issue of smoke going throughout people’s homes and whatnot as a result of people having burn permits. So, we’re with you on that. I think you’ll see us addressing that in the near future. So, I just wanted to let you know that we are doing things and we are looking at that and we are concerned about that. But, the second thing if you’d please bear with me and understand that I’m being a devil’s advocate here. I’m not trying to be difficult. I’m going to be a devil’s advocate. From your standpoint sir, if someone was burning their fireplace for and extended period of time. Fireplaces are legal and whatever, and remember I’m being a devil’s advocate, and smoke would penetrate your home. In your view how would that be different?”
Mr. Costello commented, “Ok. From the information that I have read, the smoke that comes from a fireplace is complete combustion. So, all these…”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Particulates.”
Mr. Costello commented, “…the benzene and all the stuff is burnt up and it’s, it’s burnt up. Whereas, where you got this type of furnace that the smoke is more or less, the log isn’t completely burnt up. That’s why they burn for so long. It takes, I don’t know. He would know. I don’t know. It takes hours…”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Thank you. That covers this…”
Mr. Costello commented, “…to burn this…”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “…That’s a good distinction.”
Mr. Costello commented, “So, it’s like a smold…if you just smell it you can smell the difference. I mean, I, I, you know, it’s, people burn fireplaces all the time. That doesn’t really aggravate me.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Ok. Thank you.”
Mr. Costello commented, “Do you know what I mean?”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Um hmm. Thank you.”
Mayor Harris commented, “I don’t have a question for you. But, Councilman Fijewski, you did ask the other gentleman that did he have any complaints on the issue.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “That was going to be my next issue after this. (Unintelligible) finished.”
Mayor Harris commented, “Ok.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “No. Go ahead. Be my guest.”
Mayor Harris commented, “You said that you didn’t have any complaints, and this gentleman here is saying he did complain to you.”
Mr. Costello commented, “My wife. My wife.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “His wife did. His wife did.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “That one time. That was recently as unless he meant…”
Mayor Harris commented, “You said you only one complaint. It was recently, and it was with the neighbor named Butto.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “That wasn’t a complaint.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “He asked Mr. Butto if he had any complaints.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “I asked him if he had any problems with it. He said no.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “And, Mr. Jordan you also mentioned you talked to the DEP.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “Yes.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “And, they suggested that you put an 8 foot stack on there. Is that correct?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “He told me to have it 2 foot above their, the top of their roof line.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Two foot above that, and to your estimation how many more feet additional would that require?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “I shot up a transit to the top of their roof line. I would need an additional 8 feet…”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Ok.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “…on top of my stack to put me 2 ½ feet above their roof line.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Now, Mr. Costello, you mentioned that EPA was around to view this situation and you indicated, I wrote it down, that EPA said that an additional 15 feet had to be added. Now, how did that come about?”
Mr. Costello commented, “Ok. Originally when I talked to the man from the EPA he said that it has to be 15 feet above his roof line.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Fifteen feet above his roof line.”
Mr. Costello commented, “Right. Then, 2 weeks later when I called him to ask him, you know, cause he said I’ll be up to see it. So, 2 weeks later I called him. Have you come up to see it? He said I’m coming up tomorrow. So, he comes up. He calls me up. He says, ‘I seen it. I told him.’ He said, ‘I told him he has to put 15 feet on top of his pipe.’ That will bring it above my roof line. So, so, like I say…”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “You said, E, you said EPA. You mean DEP.”
Mr. Costello commented, “Al Carducci. The guy….”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Ok. So, DEP. Ok. Thank you.”
Mr. Costello commented, “Ok. So, so, like I say, they been floating all these numbers of feet on this stack and I don’t know. You know. Personally, he has a two story house, and I think if it doesn’t go to the top of that house that you’re still going to have that air blowing up over that house blowing it down. And, when it goes down, since my house is lower than his, there’s only one other way for it to go. Do you know what I mean?”
Mayor Harris commented, “Yes, sir.”
Mr. Costello commented, “The stuff rolls down hill. So, you know, I mean, it’s a, if we was both level that might work, but…”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “You’ve answered my question. I think my confusion was, you were referring to EPA, and we were talking DEP. So, you’ve not gone to the Environmental Protection Agency. You had gone to the Department of Environmental Protection. The state, you’ve gone to the state agency, not the federal agency.”
Mr. Costello commented, “Right. If you’ll read the stuff from the…”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “I did. I’ve already done that.”
Mr. Costello commented, “…the stuff that I gave you originally, it’s like just in reverse of what younz have been trying to do. They want it to be handled at the city level. They don’t want to put a national thing on this, but they have given you, and if you look in Groughton, Massachusetts, for example, the health department come in and they put the guidelines in, the 300 feet between houses and all that. And, in other places in New England in fact, the EPA, the federal EPA has created a, it’s the Greater New England States is what it is, and they’re using that, that stuff that I give you at the original Council meeting. They’ve pretty much are taking their advice on, you know, what should be done about it.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Ok. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Jordan.”
Councilmember Kondik commented, “I just got a comment Mayor. I’d just like to make a statement here. And, I really got to agree with Mr. Costello, because on Marland Heights, we got a serious problem with Half Moon and Freedom Way. And, does it happen all the time? No. Does it happen occasionally where people call you and they want the odors to be gone and the stink to be gone and what have you? And there’s a lot, a lot of complaints, and when you look into it, you know, everything is legal because it’s commercial and the stack is ok and everything like that. And, then when it’s in my back yard, you know, yea, I’m hot. You know, I’m going to do something about it. But, at the end of the day, you really can’t because everything’s in compliance and everything like that. So, I can really feel what Mr. Costello’s going through, and being that this is a nuisance and it’s going to affect his family, I got to agree with him. Something’s got to be done.”
NEW BUSINESS
Ordinance No. NEW (emergency) AMENDING PART V, CHAPTER 1 – GENERAL OFFENSES CODE, ADDING ARTICLE 512, PUBLIC NUISANCES - SMOKE. Motion was made by Councilmember Marsh, second by Councilmember Jones.
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “I’d like to make an amendment to it.”
Mayor Harris commented, “What would you like to say?”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “In Section 512.01, Section A, I’d like to change the part of the sentence where it says, ‘all persons who burn bituminous coal, fuel oil, wood or any combustible material used as fuel for any purpose within the city,’ I would like to change ‘for any purpose’ to ‘for residential heating purposes within the city.’ I’d also like to amend Section E.”
Mr. Maher commented, “Dave, excuse me. Could you go over that one more time please? For any purpose…”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “Strike ‘for any purpose.’ Replace with ‘for residential heating purposes.’”
Mr. Maher commented, “Thank you.”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “Section E under nuisance, I would like added to the definition after ‘atmosphere of smoke used for residential heating purposes.’ So, it will read ‘nuisance meaning the emission into the atmosphere of smoke used for residential heating purposes which disturbs the comfort and convenience of persons.’ That’s all I have.”
Mayor Harris commented, “Can you read those one more time, Tom, the way that they’re supposed to be?”
Mr. Maher commented, “Sure. Section, the amendment goes to Section 512.01 A, ‘All persons who burn bituminous coal, fuel oil, wood or any combustible material used as fuel for residential heating purposes within the city shall do so in such a manner as to produce or emit from any stack, chimney or in any manner a minimum amount of smoke, soot or obnoxious odors as to not cause a nuisance., Under Section E, ‘nuisance means the emission into the atmosphere of smoke used for residential heating purposes which disturbs the comfort or convenience of persons in the vicinity.’”
Councilmember Marsh made a second.
Councilmember Ash commented, “Mayor, may I ask a question on this?”
Mayor Harris commented, “Yes.”
Councilmember Ash commented, “Is there a problem with that language since you’re an attorney?”
Mr. Gurrera commented, “I think ‘comfort or convenience’ should be something like health, ‘comfort, health or convenience.’ ‘Disturbs the comfort, health or convenience of persons in the vicinity.’”
Mr. Maher commented, “Comfort, health or convenience?”
Mr. Gurrera commented, “It’s just a recommendation.”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “I’d like to further make an amendment to Section E to add…”
Unknown commented, “We’re still in the question. The questions haven’t concluded.”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “Go ahead.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Under the question aspect of the motion, am I correct in assuming that when this thing, we decided to have this meeting, our intent was to take immediate action to resolve the situation on an immediate basis? It’s not my understanding that this resolution will extend in perpetuity but that we were waiting for resolution or be another resolution to come forward based upon your work Fred that would solve this issue. Is that accurate?”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “Yes. That was to follow.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Yes, sir. So, this in my view was intended to be a temporary thing until we were faced with a other resolution to deal, to resolve this thing. Is that accurate Councilpersons?”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “To resolve the issue of the other…”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “To set standards on this type of unit.”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “Yes.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Yes?”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “Yes.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “So this is intended only to be a temporary thing in terms of temporary, is it appropriate to think in terms of three to six months?”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “No.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Longer?”
Councilmember Kondik commented, “30 days.”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “No. One month. You mean to enact it or to leave it on the books?”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “To enact something that would set the standards for the city to follow.”
Mayor Harris commented, “How long’s it going to take you to get the standards?”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Right.”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “Probably 30 days anyway.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Ok. So, we could probably get that, review it, and do something in 3 to 4 months?”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “Oh yea.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Ok.”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “Yes.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “So, I just want to make it clear to everybody that this, this document is not necessarily going to stand like this for the next year, 2 years or 3 years. I’m assuming this would become null and void once we do something like that. Is that accurate? Or, no?”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “No. I wouldn’t leave it on the books personally.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Ok. Then I understood. Thank you.”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “No. I wouldn’t leave it on the books.”
CROSSTALK
Councilmember Marsh commented, “Ok. Thank you. Then, Mr. Dalrymple’s comment makes more sense.”
CROSSTALK
Mayor Harris commented, “Councilman Dalrymple, would you like to finish your amendment?”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “Yes, I’d like to additionally amend on Section E of the 512.01 to also add into the sentence after comfort comma ‘health or convenience,’ so that it would read ‘nuisance means the emission into the atmosphere of smoke used for residential heating purposes which disturbs the comfort, health or convenience of persons in the vicinity.’”
Mayor Harris commented, “And, since we’ve now changed the wording, I need to ask for a second motion.
Councilmember Kondik made a second to the motion.
Councilmember Miller commented, “I’ve got questions now, because I’m a bit confused, and that’s easy to do. Are, when we pass this emergency reading, seven to 0, it is not a cease and desist. So, without a valid filing a complaint, are we not going to allow Mr. Jordan to try to correct this situation?”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “I think immediate action shall be taken to stop burning until such violation can be resolved.”
Councilmember Miller commented, “There’s no violation. A violation has to be filed.”
Councilmember Kondik commented, “After you pass this, if Mr. Costello submits a complaint…”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “It’s considered a violation.”
Councilmember Kondik commented, “…then it’s a violation.”
Councilmember Miller commented, “That’s where the difficulty is. There’s no standard that that was violated.”
Mayor Harris commented, “He had a permit too.”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “That’s why I asked about criteria earlier. We have no criteria to base this on.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “But, there will be criteria under Section E as amended by Mr., Councilperson Dalrymple. It would be a nuisance. It means the emission into the atmosphere of smoke used for the residential heating purpose which disturbs the comfort, health or convenience of a person in the vicinity. So, my guess would be Mr. Costello would be taking the position and it’s a violation of this ordinance.”
Councilmember Miller commented, “I understand that. We’re talking about 2 residents in my ward.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Yes, sir.”
Councilmember Miller commented, “One’s heating his home for his family with an instrument that we have no knowledge of and no regulations on. And, the other is concerned with health issues, and I’m very supportive of his efforts, and I want to get the thing straightened out. But, I’m also in favor of people working together and if the young man can put a stack on, based on the DEP is what they’re telling you, and we have to be very careful of shutting down somebody’s system unless he can convert back to another system when we don’t even have a regulation to enforce.”
Mayor Harris commented, “He says he can convert back to the gas heat.”
Councilmember Miller commented, “I just, you know, a lot of things have been slipping by me lately and I didn’t want to pass, I’m not voting on something I don’t completely understand.”
Mr. Gurrera commented, “I think the inspections department…”
Councilmember Miller commented, “Because he didn’t get a permit 2 years ago or 2 ½ years ago, this permit thing, I’ll tell you what, 50% of the people in Weirton don’t get permits when they put a fence up or a deck or a garage or anything. So, I mean, I’m sure that you can’t go back 2 years ago and say well we got a whole mutton out of this 2 years. And, I’m not...I’m just trying to put everything out here in black and white on both parties’ positions for the neighbors that are having a problem here.”
Mr. Serafini commented, “Specifically on the cease and desist order, obviously, Mr. Rosnick couldn’t be here today. And, he was explaining to me that a couple things if it came up for me to go over what was on the cease and desist order. Normally when we have a complaint, you know, we give people an opportunity to abate it, even on a public nuisance type complaint. We mostly deal with those on a vacant structure which will create public nuisance to an area. I mean that would be an extensive amount of time. Something like this, would we give him a smaller time frame, affording somebody the opportunity to rectify the violation, in this case a public nuisance. If someone was attempting to take a cease and desist action, Mr. Rosnick felt that some type of medical document, something from the doctor stating this type of, we’ll use this case specifically that the chimney is emitting some type of toxin that may or may not cause direct harm to the particular person. I mean I could be wrong. It may be something Vince would have to answer, but he just wanted me to make the Council aware that that’s something he would prefer to be in there as far as us acting on a cease and desist.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Could I just, in the spirit of what I think Councilman Miller is suggesting, Mr. Costello, when you spoke I was really pleased to hear you say that you were willing to allow the gentleman to extend his stack and to see whether or not that made a difference. Is that…”
Mr. Costello commented, “I…”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Is that your feeling sir?”
Mr. Costello commented, “I have no problem. I just don’t want smoke in my house. That’s that bottom line. If, if, if…”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “I…”
Mr. Costello commented, “…if he can put a, a, whatever you use to catch fumes, I don’t know the, what all they’ve got in these bag houses in the mill, I don’t know. But…”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “I’m not, I guess what I’m trying to ask you is…”
Mr. Costello commented, “…if he put some kind of…”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “…are you prepared to allow him to make what the both of you could, or however you guys want to proceed on this to try to find a resolution that would at least be temporarily satisfactorily to both?”
Mr. Costello commented, “Well, the resolution I would like is that he shut it down until he finds out how to quit emitting the smoke that comes into the house. Because, I’ve waited three months now, and I’ve been smelling smoke and, you know, I mean, he had the opportunity to try the stack thing. He obviously didn’t want to try that. So, so, now, you know, that’s why I come to the last Council m…, Council meeting, because I was there the month before, and it’s just like, ok, now we’re in the half way through winter and nothings happened. And, then are we going to wait til this goes through summer? And, the more I read about this also sir, just to not take too much of your time, that there, it was brought to my attention that there are people considering using these to heat their swimming pool water. So, now this problem might not end when the springtime comes. Now, you’re going to have people that have swimming pools that say, oh it’s costing you so much money to heat my pool, I’ll just burn this fire all summer. Well, you’re going to have a lot more problems in the summer, cause at least in the winter all the windows and the doors are closed. Now, if you got people burning these things to heat water in the summer, you’re going to have this problem year round. So, you know, it, it, it’s new ground and I realize that, but there’s a lot of problems that, you know, it’s causing.”
Mayor Harris commented, “He did have one comment.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “The components. I already purchases the components to lengthen the stack another eight feet. I intend (unintelligible).”
Mayor Harris commented, “Any other questions or comments?”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “Just to get it out there again, we have absolutely no criteria for this at all, but that’s what you are going to let…if we pass this today, if this is passed today, Mr. Jordan is more than likely going to have to shut his furnace down and revert to gas. He had said that he had virtually eliminated using his gas furnace for the winter which I’m sure has cut his expenses around his house now very much. Now, he is going to have to incur the cost of heating his home with gas heat until what, until we get your recommendation to go down the road or what?”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “Now, I believe when we talked to Rod on this was that to take current recommendations in the raising of the stack. The set back, there’s nothing we can do about that. There are some other products out there that can be utilized, (unintelligible) that do not have a catalytic converter on any of them. Ok. That’s one of the other products. Ok. So, it’s essentially, we’re not going to take out his furnace. We need to resolve the problems (unintelligible) and then come with the standards, and his furnace will not come out of that property unless Bruce takes him to civil court as a (unintelligible).”
TAPE CHANGE
Councilmember Ash commented, “…earlier, we are going have a cease and desist, he’s not going to get (unintelligible), so therefore he could not use it.”
Unknown commented, “Ok.”
Councilmember Ash commented, “He cannot us it after, if we pass this today, he cannot use that for, until he gets a permit, but he’s not going to get a permit, because we have no standards yet to give him a permit.”
Unknown commented, “That’s correct.”
Councilmember Ash commented, “Am I understanding that correctly or am I confusing it totally?”
Mr. Serafini commented, “As far as that, that’s the first I heard of that. That doesn’t mean that, Mr. Rosnick is gone, I’m not sure of that.”
Mayor Harris commented, “That’s the way I’m understanding it, the way he just understood it.”
Councilmember Kondik commented, “The way I understand it, he has to get a permit because there’s not grounds not to give him the permit. Then if Mr. Costello makes a complaint then he has to cease.”
Unknown commented, “Right.”
Councilmember Kondik commented, “That’s the (unintelligible) in the format here.”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “That’s what I said when I said. It’s whoever gets to (unintelligible) first…”
CROSSTALK
Councilmember Kondik commented, “That’s just going to happen.”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “…is what happens. That’s basically what it’s coming down to. It’s going to be a foot race in effect.”
CROSSTALK
Councilmember Ash commented, “…already filed a complaint”
Councilmember Kondik commented, “Have you Bruce?”
Councilmember Ash commented, “He’s here.”
Councilmember Kondik commented, “No, I mean, if we have to have a formal complaint, did you file a formal complaint?”
Mayor Harris commented, “He is the formal complaint.”
CROSSTALK
Councilmember Ash commented, “He’s right here giving you a formal complaint.”
Mr. Costello commented, “I complained to Council two months ago. I complained to Council last month. I consider that a complaint.”
Councilmember Kondik commented, “All right.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “I’m not an attorney…”
Mr. Gurrera commented, “I don’t think that we, I don’t think the City’s going to look too good by saying, ‘go get a permit so that we can give you a cease and desist order.’”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Well, not looking, the City not looking too good, that happens all the time. But…”
Councilmember Miller commented, “I don’t know how you could present a cease and desist when you have no standards to shut it down.”
Councilmember Kondik commented, “We would.”
CROSSTALK
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Let me get the Polish version, ok. The Polish version is if we pass this today, the sequence of events could potentially be then Mr. Costello would file his complaint…”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “It’s already filed.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “But, I’m just, just give me, bear with me, Mr. Costello could then file his complaints under the nuisance portion of this ordinance. And, at that time potentially the cease and desist order would be issued based upon this nuisance order and Mr. Costello’s complaint. Right now, since we have no standards and we have no nuisance provision in here concerning residential heating units, Mr. Costello’s current complaint has no basis because there’s nothing upon which to file a complaint.”
Councilmember Ash commented, “That’s the bottom line. That’s why we’re here.”
CROSSTALK
Councilmember Miller commented, “What measurement do we use to determine it’s a nuisance?”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Well, that’s exactly what, I think Mr., Councilman Dalrymple was trying to say. As definition reads a ‘nuisance means the emissions into the atmosphere of a smoke, of smoke used or created by the residential heat, you know, for residential heating purposes which distributes, which disturbs the comfort, health and convenience.’ Mr. Costello’s, what I’m hearing him saying is going to allege that the nuisance under this definition is affecting his health or his family’s health predicated upon a unit that is used for residential heating purposes.”
Councilmember Ash commented, “Mr. Gurrera…”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Does that answer it?”
Councilmember Ash commented, “If he walks out of here today and walks down the hall and asks for a permit is he going to get a permit issued to him because we have no standards? Even if he…”
Mr. Gurrera commented, “Yes.”
Councilmember Ash commented, “Ok. He is going to get a permit. He’s going to go down and have a permit today. Is that…”
Mr. Gurrera commented, “Yes, and then he’s going to get his with a cease and desist order.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “That’s correct. That is correct. From a technical standpoint that’s my understanding. Can we deny him a permit? No. Can he at a later date be asked not to operate his unit? Yes. On what basis? By the complaint filed by Mr. Costello under the nuisance which he is alleging that this unit contributes to the ill health of his family.”
Mayor Harris commented, “Under these amendments.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Yes, sir.”
Mayor Harris commented, “Ok. Well, at this time…”
CROSSTALK
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “I’m not saying it’s right. I’m just saying that’s what I think procedurally what will happen.”
Mayor Harris commented, “At this time we will call roll call vote.”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “Wait…”
CROSSTALK
Councilmember Ash commented, “I got one little question. I have fireplace. I have fireplace in my house. And, you mean to tell me I can’t use my fireplace anymore if we pass this if my neighbor says it’s a nuisance?”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “No, because you’re fireplace, in my interpretation, is not used primarily for the heat of your residence.”
Councilmember Ash commented, “It says room…heat…”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “The things in context. I’m just taking a word out of it. Based upon the nuisance violation it said, and Mr. Dalrymple just added language that says, ‘for residential heating purposes.’ If you’re burning your fireplace 24/7 then you might qualify. But, if you’re not using your fireplace for residential heating purposes, then it does not apply. It’s not applicable.”
CROSSTALK
Mr. Gurrera commented, “Honestly, the argument would be if the person says that their fireplace is, they’re using it for warmth, it’s heating their living room.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Well, it’s on point, appreciating that it’s, that that unit is being used primarily for heating purposes.”
Mr. Gurrera commented, “The defendant, the only thing the defendant can say is I burn my fire. Then my cross examination would be you burn your fireplace in June? No. Why not? Well, cause it’s too hot. Well, if you burn it in December because you’re using it for heat.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “We can rephrase that.”
Mayor Harris commented, “But did the gentleman also say, ‘hey listen I burn this once a day.’ His neighbor could say he burns it all day. So, now you’ve got he said, she said.”
Mr. Gurrera commented, “The question, I think the question comes down to is could someone argue his fireplace is…you could always…”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Sure. Sure.”
Mr. Gurrera commented, “Yes. You could get on of these…I mean, it’s not like your neighbor burning a fireplace.”
Councilmember Ash commented, “I guess I’m done with my questions. If you want to have the vote it’s up to you.”
Mayor Harris commented, “What else have we got? Do we have something else?”
Mr. DuFour commented, “Just one thing in that sequence, which I think altogether correct, you take a look back at B. You could get a cease and desist, but could give reasonable time to cure, ok, or address, if the owner says (unintelligible) here. We were talking about the DEP and a stack. I don’t know if that’s a cure. But, it could give them time to comply before you throw the cease and desist onto them. If it’s found to be true and correct we will give them some reasonable time to comply. If they don’t cease and desist will follow. That’s the only addition I think (unintelligible).”
Councilmember Jones commented, “How long would it take you to do that?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “A few hours.”
Councilmember Jones commented, “Ok.”
CROSSTALK
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Vince, appreciating the distinction of the fireplaces, would, does it help, for example if we, and I’m not suggesting we do it, I’m just asking a question. Under Mr. Dalrymple’s suggestion under A, if we would insert, ‘for primary residential heating purposes,’ or if ‘for residential primary heating purposes’ making a distinction as to an occasional fire in your fireplace as opposed to the primary heat source.”
Mr. Gurrera commented, “I think the best way to do it is put this ordinance excludes fireplaces.”
CROSSTALK
Mr. DuFour commented, “…insert burners too. You have insert burners in fireplaces.”
Councilmember Jones commented, “Yes. And, then you got wood burners that are in house. I mean, you know what I’m saying. Then you gotta go back…”
Mayor Harris commented, “At this time are we going to leave the amendments the same?”
Councilmember Ash commented, “Yes.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Mayor, just a second please.”
Mr. Gurrera commented, “This is on an emergency basis. Right? It has to be 7/0?”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “Yes.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Could, could…”
CROSSTALK
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “I would like to, do we have to vote on yours before I make an amendment to…”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “You know what? How about I just go ahead and withdraw my original motions to amend and we just do this all at one time to get it done. Ok?”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Ok.”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “So, I withdraw my original motions to amend the articles.”
Councilmember Kondik commented, “…change it to.”
CROSSTALK
Councilmember Marsh commented, “I’ll withdraw the seconds.”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “And, I would like to again amend Article 512-10 to read, ‘all persons who burn bituminous coal, fuel oil, wood or any combustible material used as fuel in fireplaces or wood or coal stoves as the primary heat source for residential heating purposes within the city shall do so in a manner as to produce or emit from a stack, chimney, on and on an on.’”
Mr. Maher commented, “So, you’re striking, ‘for any purpose’ and substituting, ‘in fireplaces or wood or coal stoves for residential heating purposes’?”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “Yes.”
Unknown commented, “I thought it was residential…”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “Residential.”
Mayor Harris commented, “Is that the only amendment…”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “I also want to make the same amendment to, in Section E at 512.01, the nuisance definition. ‘Nuisance means the emission into the atmosphere of smoke used,’ or. Wait a minute here. I have to take a look at it. ‘Nuisance means the emission into the atmosphere of smoke used for residential heating purposes other than fire places…’”
Councilmember Kondik commented, “Other than…”
Councilmember Kondik commented, “‘Other than or excluding fireplaces and coal or wood stove, stoves, for primary heating, home heating which disturbs the comfort, health, or convenience of persons in the vicinity.’”
Mr. Maher commented, “Your subject in this case and in Section E is the smoke, so you’re going to need to reference back to the burning that results in the smoke. Would you not agree?”
Mr. Gurrera commented, “I don’t think you need to. If you want to be more specific you can be by doing that.”
Mr. Maher commented, “The smoke’s…”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “We could even use the language that Dave suggested initially and just add an F, and F could say, ‘this does not apply to fireplaces.’”
Mr. Gurrera commented, “Wood burning.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “If we’re struggling with it.”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “E. The amendment, this is a final thing with E. ‘Nuisance means the emission into the atmosphere of, of smoke used for residential heating purposes which disturbs the comfort, health or convenience of persons in the vicinity.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Yes, but smoke isn’t used for the residential. It is smoke generated by…I think that’s what Tom is saying.”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “Yes. Smoke generated by. You’re correct. I’m…F, I would like to amend and add an F to Section 512.01 that reads, ‘this excludes fireplaces and wood or coal burning stoves.’”
Councilmember Ash commented, “I’ll second that motion.”
Mr. Maher commented, “I would like to repeat number E. I’ll need it read back to me, the first amendment.”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “You didn’t write it down?”
Mr. Maher commented, “I was trying Dave.”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “Go to the tape. Go to the tape.”
Mr. Maher commented, “You want me to play it back now?”
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “I did it on the fly. Go to the tape. No, I mean, I don’t want to get, I did it to make sure, I read it so it was on the tape. I don’t want to make a mistake.”
Mr. Maher commented, “Ok.”
Mayor Harris commented, “Do we have a second?”
Councilmember Ash commented, “I second it.”
Mayor Harris commented, “At this time Tom I would ask for a roll call vote please on the amendments.”
ROLL CALL
Councilman Ash Yes Councilman Jones Yes Councilman Marsh Yes Councilman Miller Yes Councilman Dalrymple Yes Councilman Fijewski Yes Councilman Kondik Yes
The motion to amend passed by majority, 7/0.
Councilmember Ash commented, “One last thing and I don’t if there’s anything else about it. Sir, you should be down the all getting a permit, now.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “Can one of you explain what I need to do down there? Am I going to hit with this cease and desist order right now and have to shut down? I’m confused…”
CROSSTALK
Mr. DuFour commented, “If a complaint is made and the investigation is passed.”
Councilmember Ash commented, “If there is a complaint (unintelligible). Go get your permit. If there’s a, if I understand it correctly, get your permit now. If there’s a complaint filed as a nuisance, there will be an investigation that will give you time to rectify it and then that’ll be the end of it if it’s rectified. If it’s not, it’ll be declared a nuisance.”
Mr. Jordan commented, “Repeat that again, please. I’ll go get my permit.”
Councilmember Ash commented, “You have to get a permit. Then the nuisance complaint will be filed. You’ll have time to correct the nuisance. If you don’t correct the nuisance, then you will get a cease and desist order. Correct?”
Mr. Gurrera commented, “Yes.”
Councilmember Miller commented, “Yes.”
Mr. DuFour commented, “Yes.”
Councilmember Ash commented, “All right.”
CROSSTALK
Mayor Harris commented, “At this time can we have another roll call vote?”
ROLL CALL
Councilman Kondik Yes Councilman Fijewski Yes Councilman Dalrymple Yes Councilman Miller Yes Councilman Marsh Yes Councilman Jones Yes Councilman Ash Yes
The motion as amended passed by majority, 7/0.
Mr. Gurrera commented, “Do you want to go with John to get the permit? And, I assume we’re already accepting the complaint at this time.”
Mr. DuFour commented, “Yes.”
CROSSTALK
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “You’re going to know ten minutes of the complaint.”
Mayor Harris commented, “You’re going to wait one minute?”
Mr. Jordan commented, “Pardon me?”
Mr. DuFour commented, “I’ll talk to you as soon as we’re done. Could you just stay a couple of minutes while we…”
Mr. Jordan commented, “Ok.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Excuse me Mayor. Was the point made that, by the attorney that Mr. Costello’s appearance here today will serve as the…”
Mr. Gurrera commented, “Yes.
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “…the required…”
CROSSTALK
Councilmember Kondik commented, “And, I don’t need that in writing?”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “That needs to be reflected in the minutes.”
Mr. Maher commented, “Yes.”
Mayor Harris commented, “Gary will be doing this after the meeting.”
Mr. DuFour commented, “I don’t give insurance.”
Councilmember Fijewski commented, “Thank you sir.”
Councilmember Kondik commented, “We don’t need it in writing?”
Mayor Harris commented, “We are going to get it in writing…”
CROSSTALK
Councilmember Miller commented, “That’s what I’m saying. That’s what my (unintelligible) is. Gary is going to take care of it…”
Ordinance No. NEW amending the traffic control map ordinance No. 214 of the City of Weirton to amend Ordinance No. 1549, Amendment No. 645, which was passed by emergency reading on November 13, 2007, and which established a “no parking zone” on Fernwood Avenue on the inside radius of the curve that is located on Fernwood Avenue from the Northern Intersection of Fernwood Avenue and Crystal Lane for the entire length of the Property Located at 200 Crystal Lane to establish the “no parking zone” on Fernwood Avenue on the inside radius of the curve that located on Fernwood Avenue from Fernwood Avenue’s Northern Intersection with Crystal Lane for a distance on Fernwood Avenue to end at a point sixty (60) feet before Fernwood Avenue’s Intersection with Union Street. Motion was made by Councilmember Marsh, second by Councilmember Ash.
Councilmember Dalrymple commented, “I’ve got all kinds of questions.”
LAUGHTER
Councilmember Kondik commented, “I’d like to make an amendment to that.”
LAUGHTER
Councilmember Miller commented, “Why did we have this? Did somebody screw it up?”
Councilmember Marsh commented, “Um hmm.”
LAUGHTER
Councilmember Marsh commented, “As we learned the other night it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.”
LAUGHTER
The motion passed by majority, 7/0.
Councilmember Marsh commented, “Thank you gentlemen.”
A motion to adjourn the meeting was made by Councilman Kondik, second by Councilman Dalrymple.
The motion to adjourn passed by majority, 7/0.
ADJOURNMENT
With no further business before this December 13, 2007 special session of the Weirton City Council the meeting was adjourned after the closing prayer.
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